Closed Loop & Rough Running Tartarini

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Closed Loop & Rough Running Tartarini

Postby Teflon » Mon 20 Apr 2009 9:59 pm

Ok, been looking at a 3.9EFi like mine.
Gas installation looks almost exactly like the single point open-loop system on mine; EXCEPT;
Has a mixture adjustment valve where mine has a mixture adjustment valve....... with no 'adjustment' screw;
It has a connector block on the bottom and wires heading off into the loom.
Do I asume this makes it a 'closed loop' system?
With reference to Cats & Lambda sensors; mine doesn't have them. This doesn't seem to have Cats but DOES seem to have Lambdas..... or at least something bolted into a boss on the exhaust collectors!
Anyway, apart from identifying what I'm looking at here; which has a lot of stickers or badges saying "Tartarini",
Thing wont switch to gas unless it is WELL up to temperature; basically the temp needle is right in the middle at normall running.
Switch it to gas; and it sluffs and puffs and isn't at all happy; put-cha-foot down, and it wont go.
I had a poke about and identified that the elbow from plenum to AFM wasn't exactly air-tight, wrapped it in insulation tape and, she ran a lot better (but not exactly brilliantly) on Petrol, and WOULD do 'something' on gas...... not a lot...... but 'something'.
If you didn't put your foot down, you COULD using part throttle coax SOME acceleration out of her, just not much.
Get her up to around 30 or 50 on petrol, then switch, and she'd take it; still fluffed and coughed; but WOULD pull.
Wouldn't accelerate, and didn't like even a slight incline....... but would pull.
Now, there are probably a plethora of maledies in there, BUT, absolute stench of stinking agent makes me thing that the evaporator might not be doing its job.
Would this sound about right?
Next question; where the heck would I find an overhaul kit for a Tartarini evaporator with markings on it;
APP DGM 48708 G-PL / APP DGM 48709 GM
Or shouldn't wouldn't you bother; just replace the evaporator; in which case, what with?
And No, I HAVEN'T gone over the ignition; no I have NO idea whether the dizzy cap is genuine or not, and I am LOATH to start pulling ignition components off MY car that is running very smoothly on gas and petrol at the moment, to try it out!
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Postby s1simon » Tue 21 Apr 2009 2:20 am

Hi

Two things you could do, apart from ignition bits that is, are replace the closed loop control with simple manually adjusted type and replace the vapouriser, and definately sort the inlet pipework as it does seem to have a BIG effect on gas performance. I don't know where you would get Tartarini bits, however ebay is the usual culprit!
Hope this helps
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Postby paintman » Tue 21 Apr 2009 8:39 am

May be very rich. Don't forget that stenching agent doesn't burn off & if you drive with a front window down fumes get drawn in from the exhaust via all the wonderfully tight :roll: tailgate joints
The gas valve you've got is an LPG stepper motor. Has it failed in either open or closed position?
I'm not going to comment on the unknown ignition bits as I know you know about them.... :)
Don't know about suppliers of Tartarinin but might it be worth having a chat with Tinley Tech?
Or replace the bits & try one of the BLOS set-ups?
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Postby Rangiebob » Tue 21 Apr 2009 4:01 pm

Could also be a dead Lambda sensor.
When mine died it just wouldn't rev on gas and it stank.
The Lambda was telling the ecu the mixture was weak so it sent the stepper valve wide open.
If you've a laptop you can get a lead + software to check out the LPG ECU for around £40 on ebay.
Mine's a Romano vaporiser with Leonardo ECU

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Postby Teflon » Tue 21 Apr 2009 9:50 pm

OK..... well that's interesting......... dont know if this is making me feel any easier!
RIGHT!
Pulled off the Stepper-motor mixture adjustment thingy.......
This is it:-
Image
Looks like this disc on the top of the outside is a cylinder, that inside has been milled away leaving a 'gate' about 1/3rd the circumg#ference of teh cylinder, and works as a gate valve to set the 'nominal' flow of gas through the valve.
But I cant fathom how you would turn it.... looks like there's supposed to be a special key or something to move the thing round, and line the arrow on the top up with one of the numbers on that scale.
Its currently set at '4'
Then, INSIDE looks like this:-
ImageWhich isn't very clear, but from the other end....
Image
Appears that there is a piston, inside the milled cylinder, and that slides up and down, masking more or less of the gap exposed by the 'gate' giving a fine adjustment controlled by the stepper motor..........
NOW; I have found, I think, the Lambda....
Image
This car does NOT have catalysts, and this sensor is not on the collectors for each bank, like the bosses on Jaqui's exhausts, which dont have anything in them, as she has no cats and no lambdas..... but any way.

First of all; looks like that boss has been grafted into the exhaust; it soesn't look like an OE fit. AND looks like the welding has been repaired, or augmented at some time by exhasut joint expansion paste!

There is a small hole in the exhaust further down-stream (pin hole, nothing major.... but it doesn't SEEM to be leaking around this boss, though I wouldn't stake a beer on it!

So, would a leak around the Lambda or down-stream of the sensor make it read 'funny'?

Next; after removing the stepper thingy; I substituted the mixture valve off Jaqui, as suggested to run it 'open loop'....... Amazingly she ran an AWFUL lot better on gas!

In fact, seems reasonably good! (No she cant stay that way I want that vaklkve back for MY Rangie!)

Gave me a bit of gip switching to gas and cutting out, but once warmer seemed OK and WOULD accelerate; right up to 70. Not exactly brilliant, but a darn site better than before! And I didn't exactly spend much time setting it up.

So it looks like we are on the right lines here.........

Right; back on the drive, with the manual mixture valve still in place, I plugged the stepper back into the loom, and revved the engine to see what it did..... was it siezed as suggested.

Well, that piston in the middle DID go up and down as I revved the engine, so I guess it's NOT siezed.

Which leads me to thing:-

a) As suggested duff signal from Lambda in exhaust
Leading to
b) Problem with Lambda
c) Problem with Lambda wiring
d) problem with exhaust
OR
e) Problem with LPG ECU not doing the right thing with the Lambda signal
OR
f) The stepper valve isn't doing what it should
OR
g) everything THAT side is fine, but SOME-ONE has bluggered up the settings and I MIGHT be able to fix it by adjusting the twiddly thing you dont seem to be able to twiddle without a special key.......
OR
h) Problem IS with the vapouriser, and fitting my misture screw has just let me mask the fault by choking the volume of gas that can get out of it.......

What do you think folks, and where should I start..........

Intreguingly; when I put Jaqui's mixture valve on, I had to scre it in about two and half turns to get a decent idle, so suggests that this system is delivering a heck of a lot more gas to the mixer.

Also, the piston in the stepper was almost completely choking the hole through the valve when the motor was idling, and only opened fully when I blipped the throttle. Didn't seem too lazy or anything....

SORT of hoping this points to a problem of adjustment, and fiddly fingered people not knowing what they are doing.... but lack of scratch marks on that stepper adjustment suggest that's only ever been twiddled by some-one with a key....... suggesting that some-one was some-one who knew what they were up to!

Any thoughts?

Would there be a regulator on the vapouriser? Cant see anything obviouse to twiddle down there, but could look.
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Postby Bowie » Wed 22 Apr 2009 2:59 pm

I'd suggest that the stepper motor needs no adjustment, but without a pic of what you are playing with I can't be 100% about that. They normally have a knurled adjuster just like a manual power valve on the outside of the case which you just setup to 'there or thereabouts' and let the stepper sort the rest of it out.

As for the general problem, I would strip the vapouriser, or if you can be bothered swap the known good one off Jacqui and see if the problem still exists. I'd be suspicious of a split diaphram really... or just choked up with heavy ends.

If all else fails, bin the ECU chop the wires to the lambda, install manual power valve and run it open loop instead.

Think that might help :?
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Postby Teflon » Sun 03 May 2009 6:40 pm

Cheers Bowie,
Yeah, suspecting the vapouriser again, but!?!?
This is NOT my top priority job at the mo.... top of the list is prepping for welding! Just 'messing'....
Been running her with manual mixer valve of Jacqui; runs OK...ish. She's down on power.... ALOT down on power, like she struggles up mild inclines.... revs out ok, just doesn't like taking load, on petrol or gas.
But the most damning thing is that she just doesn't have any 'snap' in her, throttle response is not there, you have to give her written notice if you want her to accelerate, and then she does so grudgingly.....
Sounds tappety too!
So I think I have a mixed bag of maledies TBH......

However...... Vacuum..... one for cruiser I think........

I had a thunk, that maybe the ignition wasn't advancing properly.... I haven't taken the dizzy cap off..... best not disturb anything unless I have to just yet......

But the vac advance hose didn't have the widget in it half way, you know the one that looks like a filter, but isn't and has carn written on one side, and dist on the other......

So I wipped the vac hose with the widget of Jaqui, and gave it a try...... on the drive, reved up a lot nicer.

So I just thought I'd pop the stepper back in; BUT left the manual mixer in too.... just opened it up a turn or too, and see what would happen...... revved up REALLY nicely and held a much more steady idle......

OK, lets take the manual mixer out, I thought, and did so with the engine running........ Of course, as soon as I pulled the pipe the engine stopped...... not surprisingly...... but what WAS surprising was that she carried on venting gas out of the vapouriser end for quite a while......... and THEN then solenoid clicked.

THAT makes sense, becouse switching from gas to petrol, or vica versa has given her quite a few 'dead' moments, and I suspected excess LPG in the manifold......

OK. Plugged the pipe back in, and fired her back up....... started fine, but not as nice as with the manual mixer valve in place, so I located the delivery adjuster on the vapouriser and gave it a tweek, down-wards.... idle improved..... but ran out of adjustment with the delivery screw completely closed......

Thought I'd trundle her round the block and see what she was like 'on load'...... and she barely pulled off the drive!

Acceleration? Nah! Not a hope! Feathered the throttle, to see if she'd pick up on a smaller opening, but she didn't want to know; so I clicked her onto FPF and she stuttered, fluffed, then roared (as well as she can!") up to the next t-junction!

Now, my thought was, vacuum for the dizzy comes of the plenum, down-stream of the mixer, but only JUST down-stream....... Can / does the mixer ever effect the vacuum 'signal' as seen by the dizzy?

Or am I back looking at that vaporiser with the notion that it is just grossely over delivering?

e-mailed some-one that had Tarterini parts with all the markings on the vapouriser, but they never got back to me about an overhaul kit.

Any-one have any ideas where I should try (lost the link to the people I e-mailed - puter got a cold last week!)
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Postby Bowie » Tue 05 May 2009 4:10 pm

Just realised you said you haven't changed electrics, I'd at least pop the cap off and take a good look inside, reset the air gap and if you have a spare coil to hand plumb that in temporarily.

TBH, I think you might be overcomplicating things a bit, the vapouriser *seems* to be delivering gas when it shouldn't (screw fully shut) -I'd strip it, so for the service kit, would something like this be it:

http://www.lpg-kits.com/vaporizers.htm -4th from the bottom.

If you end up shopping for a second hand/new replacement vapouriser then go for an OMVL R90e, lovely things on the V8 ;)
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Postby Teflon » Mon 11 May 2009 6:09 pm

UPDATE:-
Well, I swapped the vapuriser off Jaqui on to honey, and gave that a go, without it making much difference at all.
So, with Jaqui's vapuriser and mixture valve in, I plugged in the stepper valve and watched to see what it did when I revved the engine...... it DID move, but then it didn't.... so I took it apart to see what was inside.......
Springs 'pinged' rods shot everywhere and a plunger hit me in the fore-head.....
..... just like being seven again and taking apart a cloc-work mounse innit!
So I frowned, puzzled, made a coffee, and tried to see how to put it back together again........ then went outside and gave it another go to see if it did anything........
It DID!
Piston inside went up and down as I revved the engine....... so
a) I presume teh pistion must have been sticking
b) taking it apart ungummed it
c) some-how I put it back together 'right'!
So I took out the manual mixer, swapped the vapourisers back over and tried it out......
Hunted on tick-over..... but I discovered when I took it apart that the course adjustment gate was turned not by a key on the top, but by a screw that was lock-wired on the outside.
Gave it a few tweeks to see what it did, and yes it does seem to be pretty course.
Revved it up, and got nothing.... then remembered how much I'd turned down the delivery screw on the vapouriser, so tried opening that............
Then gave it a bit more of a tweek on teh course adjustment and LO!
Darn thing seemed to work a BIT more like it should!
Yet to try it under hard load, best I managed was a quick spin round the block.......
But she actually WENT when I pressed the loud pedal!
BIG Bonus!
So looks like she may be sorted with just a bit of careful tuning...... if it jams again, may be a new stepper, but I guess I know where I'm looking now!
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Postby paintman » Mon 11 May 2009 8:07 pm

Teflon wrote:UPDATE:-
Well, I swapped the vapuriser off Jaqui on to honey, and gave that a go, without it making much difference at all.
So, with Jaqui's vapuriser and mixture valve in, I plugged in the stepper valve and watched to see what it did when I revved the engine...... it DID move, but then it didn't.... so I took it apart to see what was inside.......
Springs 'pinged' rods shot everywhere and a plunger hit me in the fore-head.....
..... just like being seven again and taking apart a cloc-work mounse innit!
So I frowned, puzzled, made a coffee, and tried to see how to put it back together again........ then went outside and gave it another go to see if it did anything........
It DID!
Piston inside went up and down as I revved the engine....... so
a) I presume teh pistion must have been sticking
b) taking it apart ungummed it
c) some-how I put it back together 'right'!
So I took out the manual mixer, swapped the vapourisers back over and tried it out......
Hunted on tick-over..... but I discovered when I took it apart that the course adjustment gate was turned not by a key on the top, but by a screw that was lock-wired on the outside.
Gave it a few tweeks to see what it did, and yes it does seem to be pretty course.
Revved it up, and got nothing.... then remembered how much I'd turned down the delivery screw on the vapouriser, so tried opening that............
Then gave it a bit more of a tweek on teh course adjustment and LO!
Darn thing seemed to work a BIT more like it should!
Yet to try it under hard load, best I managed was a quick spin round the block.......
But she actually WENT when I pressed the loud pedal!
BIG Bonus!
So looks like she may be sorted with just a bit of careful tuning...... if it jams again, may be a new stepper, but I guess I know where I'm looking now!
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